Setting Vibes and Invisible KPIs with Jia Wang: Elevated Frequencies Episode #13

Olivia: Cool. All right. Well, Jia, it's so nice to see you. Thank you for joining me. My friend, I've known you for a little while now and I'm really happy I could bring you on the podcast.

Jia: Yeah, I'm super happy to be here, Lavia. Really excited to discuss what we plan on discussing here.

Olivia: Yeah, so I know you just got back from Mexico City, was it?

Jia: Yes it was absolutely amazing.

Olivia: You're always on the move.

Jia: Yeah, yeah, I mean I can't complain though.

Olivia: Was that for work or for pleasure?

Jia: Yeah, actually, it was a little bit of both. I went out there because I had a gig on Friday night. So it's my fourth time playing out there. I'm also a DJ along, you know, being a promoter, but DJing is still my first love. So any opportunities that I get to play, I'm out there. So it's one of the cities that really has a special place in my heart just because of the people, culture, and the growing techno scene. So

Olivia: Yeah,

Jia: really

Olivia: I love

Jia: recommend

Olivia: that.

Jia: it.

Olivia: Well, we have a lot to get into because you do so many things. You are the founder of 6AM Group, formerly 6AM Disturbance. But like you mentioned, your first love is DJing. So I know a lot about your story because we actually worked together on some branding exercise in the past. And I got a really good insight into who you are and why you built 6AM, which... I've been a fan of for long before I knew you. So let's talk about, so you started as a DJ, but you also were in finance. Tell me

Jia: You're right.

Olivia: about those early days.

Jia: Yeah, so, you know, obviously I went to school for accounting and finance after graduation. You know, typical path for any college student was to go get a job. So I ultimately just went and got an accounting and finance job, knowing that is something very stable that I could use to leverage and actually help build whatever I needed to build outside of those corporate walls. And so yeah, I mean, it's one of those things that I first realized, wait, accounting and finance has nothing to do with DJing and event promotions, all of that, until I started doing my own budgets, doing our own books, because this is a real industry now. And you know, with any industry, you definitely need some good accounting, finance, as well as bookkeeping. So it's played out pretty well.

Olivia: That's true. I know, and I want to talk about how you help artists as entrepreneurs, but that's one of the pitfalls of a lot of people in this industry is they're so focused on the creative side that they don't necessarily have that background to have the business sense. So, and we'll get to that, but so you had this background in accounting and you started going out to shows in LA, right? And you were staying out super late.

Jia: Correct, correct, correct. So

Olivia: and then

Jia: it

Olivia: go

Jia: actually

Olivia: into

Jia: happened

Olivia: your

Jia: in

Olivia: day

Jia: San

Olivia: job.

Jia: Diego, right? So I was actually working in a finance company in San Diego, LPL Financials, a really big private financial company. And because we served a lot of clients in Boston, New York, you know, I had to be at work no later than 637am, which means I had to be up at six in the morning. Then on the weekends, the opposite would happen, as I told you. We would party, stay out late, and if anything, I found myself in front of the liquor store at 6 a.m., waiting for them to open, so that we can buy drinks and alcohol to keep the party going. So that was really that duality, that dual life, which so many artists and industry people have gone through. And so that's really how the brand came about. It's about being in balance. If you look at a clock in a traditional way, and I was really living that crazy, balanced, unbalanced life.

Olivia: Yeah. And so tell me about the point that you decided I can no longer sustain doing both and I'm not happy ultimately doing finance. What was the breaking point for you to leave that behind and kind of go full time with this project that's turned into this brand?

Jia: Right, well, you know, I have to say within like year two or year three, working the corporate job, I've had enough of it. But obviously, just because you want to quit and do this music thing full time, it doesn't mean that you are ready for it or that the life or universe is going to give you what you want. So, you know, ultimately it was just a lot of, um, early morning work, late night work, every spare minute I had, I was working to build this company, whether a sub promoters. as a promotion company, as a content company, as an event company, we really did everything to kind of see what is going to stick. And so the turning point, you know, let's jump to it is, so I graduated college in 2007, moved up to LA 2008, had one job until 2017. So it was a nine year journey with one job, one company, and really pushing it through. And the turning point was in 2017, about nine years. And with 6AM, our events and festival in Guam started to really take off. Things were just becoming super busy. I mean, I was coming into work literally doing 6AM work and I didn't think it was right. It's not right as a matter of fact. And so that was really the turning point of it. At the same time, I was also living a double life, right? I mean, I didn't want people at work to know what I was doing. I mean, it's just not a professional thing that we do, at least in the corporate world. So I really kept that hush and what it does to someone when you try to live this double life is that it really messes up with your head. It's like that TV show, Severance, right?

Olivia: Mm-hmm.

Jia: I don't know if you've seen it, but it's essentially like you don't know who you are outside of work and who you are outside of work don't know who you are. And the biggest lesson I took from that show is that, both of them wanted to know who they were in the end, but. Ultimately, that's just not how severance was made, right? Because you're not supposed to know that, but ultimately they both had a desire to know who they are and ultimately we just want to be who we are. Ultimately, fully and not have to live this double life, not have to come in and put up a white lie, you know? So that

Olivia: Thank

Jia: was

Olivia: you.

Jia: ultimately the turning point. 2017 I've had enough, like I can't live this double life. I'm lying to my friends at work about what I do. And at the same time, things are growing and happening. And, you know, I've ultimately just made the jump because I felt like I was ready, but more importantly, what we were doing, at least on the events front and festival side, it was showing all signs that I was ready to jump. So that's what I did.

Olivia: Yeah, it's amazing. And that cognitive dissonance, like you said, really has an effect on your mental health when you know that you're acting one way with one group. It's really hard to not live authentically. I think a lot of us wear masks in a way, but that actually drains your energy more than just being authentic would be. And one thing I love though about you, and we can talk about the different ways you help artists with ArtistMap and your blog and your newsletter. is you recognize that not everyone is able to take that next step yet to do this thing full time. And so the resources that you're providing artists are, hey, here is the mindset you have to have if you are going to try to make it in a career as a DJ or in the industry, but you also have to tend to the other responsibilities. So talk to me about Artist Map because it's one of my favorite parts serves artists.

Jia: Yeah, sure. You know, I have to tell the story of Artist Map because if anything, it's actually what saved me in this industry. And I even want to say it saved 6 a.m. because I launched Artist Map in 2019. And prior to that, I was feeling actually quite burned out and drained out. So it's been nine years, I finally jumped. And then once I jumped, we just went crazy, like just with events, shop, everything that I started to feel purposeless. What are we doing here? And it was during an interview that I did with John Digweed at Movement where he talked about, you know, you need to find your purpose because that's what's gonna anchor everything down. And so when I realized that I had all this passion for everything I was doing without the purpose, I felt really lost, right? Why am I sad after a sold out event? Or why am I sad when this is ultimately what I've always wanted to do? And so I had to look inwards. And everything that I've read regarding entrepreneurship, all of that, it always says, you know, how are you serving your community? And that was the big aha moment for me. Like, you know what? I'm not, we're not. And so the first community that I decided that needs to be served is the artist community because it is the biggest industry community that we have. There are more aspiring artists every day than new babies being born. I'm just kidding about that. But. But that is really what it seems like, right? I mean, every day, every hour, every minute, there's someone right now making a decision that this is what I wanna do because this is what I love. And I really felt like they were completely being underserved. There are so many courses out there that teaches you how to make music, but nothing else outside of that. What's the mentality you have to go through? What is the approach, right? How do you market the music that you just made? How do you get yourself out of your own comfort zone? So I decided to use a lot of what I find were my strengths and things that I've done with myself, first as a DJ, then as a promoter building the 6AM brand and really dumping it back into the artist community. And so far it's been one of the, it's my passion project. It's actually my purpose project, I call

Olivia: I

Jia: it.

Olivia: love

Jia: So,

Olivia: that.

Jia: you know, it's launched since 2019. We have over 900 enrollees.

Olivia: Amazing.

Jia: in phase one, which is about mindset and approach. And then we teach things such as social media, self-promotion, branding. And the next phase, which I'm currently developing, is teaching artists how to launch their own music label and create their own community. So yeah,

Olivia: It's amazing.

Jia: it's been so much fun.

Olivia: It's really a holistic approach to what it means to be an artist these days because at the end of the day, they need all of those components. As much as people just wish they could just make music and send it out and have the rest taken care of, it's not the reality. And what I like, because I've read so much of your content, is you don't sugarcoat anything. You speak plainly. And I think that people really resonate with that, especially... not everyone, we're getting better as a society, but not everyone is receptive to mental health discussions, or they wanna like, pretend like they don't have anything wrong, and you are just taking this, your personality is straightforward, blunt approach to, this shit happens, and you need to be ready for it, whether it's, you know, whatever mental health struggle pops up during your journey. And so that's super refreshing to see.

Jia: Yeah, thank you, and it's, you know, and I don't say all these things because, oh, they're theories. No, like I went through it.

Olivia: Mm-hmm.

Jia: I see my peers going through it. This is what's happening. This is why people quit, you know. So really wanted to just grab that information and just share it because it can really help them, number one, save time, right? If I dump all this truth out and you're a 23 year old kid and you know what? That's not for me. You can make that decision right now, rather than going through 10, 12 years of it, to your 35 and be like, man, I made a big mistake. That's all I'm trying to do is to help people understand and realize and to dump a real tactical perspective of my experience and the experience of my peers over the journey.

Olivia: Yeah, it's like, it's a fast track of learning to, like you said, understanding, is this something I want to stick out or not? Um, and that's a very, and your price point is super accessible too. It's not like you're gatekeeping this knowledge.

Jia: Oh yeah, it's free. Well, phase one is free and

Olivia: Right.

Jia: everything else is under $30 in terms of that. And yeah, I mean that's

Olivia: Yeah.

Jia: because my intention is really that I'm not here to make your money. I really want to help, so.

Olivia: Yeah, it's incredible. And I know, like you said, this is your purpose project, but there's so many other components to 6 a.m. And what I love most about you as a person is when I first reached out to you, for example, to talk about potentially working together, you were so receptive to hearing my ideas. And I think a lot of people in the industry maybe get jaded or they feel like, oh, I get pitched all the time for this or that. and you have such an open door like approach to you, which I think is, you know, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I feel like it's contributed to your success because you're really open to hearing how can we do more? How can I build more community, expand our outreach? So where does that come from? Because I imagine you get pinged all the time by people who want to pitch you their ideas.

Jia: Right, for sure. Well, you know, I think first and foremost, I think you crafted a really, really good email. And also, I believe Marco forwarded the email to me. He's like, hey, you should take

Olivia: Oh

Jia: a look

Olivia: yeah.

Jia: at this. So, but, but I, you know, but obviously, just because he forwarded it, it doesn't mean that, okay, I'm going to be receptive. I think the timing of your email really came perfectly because it was an area that I wanted to learn more about. So anytime when I feel like there's someone... especially somewhere from the industry that has some sort of knowledge or value that you know, I see hey This is parallel in terms of what I need Obviously, I'm going to respond to that now back to your Saying in terms of us being more de-receptive. It's always my intention Do you know why Olivia because do you know how many myspace messages Facebook DMS emails I've sent that? Never got responded to you know, not even a no tell me no Tell

Olivia: Great.

Jia: me no, so I've always made it a purpose and this is a company culture that we respond to people no matter what. And if we don't, and I know there's some watching like, wait, why you didn't respond to mine? Look, if there isn't, follow up and just know that it's not intentional because right now, yes, our inboxes are flooded, but if it is something that we can truly do that's not gonna be too crazy, we are always down to respond. And even if it's a no, we tell them, hey, not this time, they got an answer. So that is something quite big in terms of, I feel like people in the industry really need to just start responding more because it's a real human with an emotion. And like, you don't know

Olivia: Yes.

Jia: what they're going through. Like it probably took them nerves of steel to like hit that sun button, right? And like, oh, you know, and like for them to never hear you back. I mean, it, it adds to their narrative. You see, it doesn't work. You see, this is how

Olivia: You're

Jia: the

Olivia: right.

Jia: industry works. So us being the contributor of changing the narrative. We gotta change it with our actions.

Olivia: Yeah.

Jia: And so the action is to respond whenever we can.

Olivia: It's, it's, it's really honorable because it isn't the norm in India, any industry anymore, I don't think, but especially this one because people are busy, but you're right. If even if the response is no granting them a response really only takes a couple of minutes and it means the world. And like you said, it's, it's making sure that the narrative isn't, Oh, these people are, you know, whatever, or, you know, it's, it goes both ways. And, and on the other side of this. I appreciate you saying I crafted a good email. You know that comes with experience, but I know that in your course, you actually talk to artists about how to craft a good email. So you're not, so first of all, you look professional. And second of all, you're not like annoying them.

Jia: Right.

Olivia: So talk to me about that, because I think that is such good information for anybody.

Jia: Yeah, for sure. So because we get so many emails and DMs that are just crap, like what is this? Sometimes it's just a link, not even a hello. And I was really through that as I wait, you know what? I realize artists can't communicate. I realize actually 80% of this population can't communicate, which is why communication is such a big thing for me right now, right? I mean, I hate to say it, but we didn't learn it from our parents and we sure as hell didn't learn it in school. So. And now we're expected to go into the real world and be able to craft and communicate our ideas or to articulate what it is that we want. So I felt like it was really, really important to create a few templates and structures that artists can actually follow, right? Hey, step number one, say hello, how are you doing? Step number two, get to the point. They don't need to know your entire life story in this first email. And step number three, always thank them for their time, no matter what. And step number four, five, and six, right? This is how you follow up. Keep it

Olivia: Mm-hmm.

Jia: even shorter, right?

Olivia: Right.

Jia: Don't, there are people that actually, it's happened before where we, I guess, didn't respond or whatever. We're just busy and they came back. I was like, how dare you just completely ripped us? And it's like, okay, that's not how you follow up. Thanks for getting our attention, but

Olivia: Yeah.

Jia: you just closed the door. You got the response you wanted, or you got the response that you were waiting for. but it's not the response you were hoping for. So.

Olivia: Yeah, it's so important to know. One thing that I have learned in my entrepreneurial journey and just in general is people, every one of us is a little bit self-centered. And so we like our self-centered when people are pitching us for something, right? And so when I craft my emails, I keep that in mind. This is about the other person, not, hey, I'm amazing at growing your TikTok and you should hire

Jia: Right.

Olivia: me. Hey, you have this great brand. Let's put a spotlight on it and build it up.

Jia: You have a great label. I love your label. I hated your event series. They're super inspiring. I mean, look, call it what you want, right? BSing, gaslighting, etc. But it doesn't hurt to just be nice. And do it because you really mean it, right? You're reaching out to this label, this promoter. I mean, it's because you want something from them, right? Share with them how you really feel about their brand. At least start with that because you can never go wrong doing that. Like even if they say no, they never respond, whatever, you just can't go wrong. Starting off with a nice message, nice hello and a nice comp.

Olivia: Absolutely. And I know that you and I have talked about some point like that approach in person too, because at events it's even more, um, like particular because there's a lot going on. You're busy, you're working the event, you're probably troubleshooting 15 different things. And you and I have talked about how like sometimes people can approach and there's the right approach to do it if you want to introduce yourself and, and do business and then there's the wrong, um, go, but even I want to take a step back really quick. because I've seen this debated on Twitter a lot. Do you feel like business can be done at the club or which side of the fence are you on in that?

Jia: It depends. Okay business in terms of networking. Yes, absolutely I mean, it's the best place to do it now business in terms of explaining your dreams explaining your ideas and goals No, right go out and network. Have a good time. Have a handshake. Have a drink have a whatever that That that vibes with the current situation My best advice is to grab a phone number or sorry not grab a phone grab an Instagram handle follow them and DM them right there Hopefully they'll follow you back most of the time they will so not only do you gain a follower? But you're directly engaging with them chances are when they follow you back when they check out your profile Your profile should explain what you do already, so it kind of already like Okay, is this person sketchy no because we have their entire profile on a phone And I think just leaving it at that grab an email at worst right if they don't have Instagram or social media That's a lie

Olivia: Thank you.

Jia: Grab their email and say that you'll be emailing them or grab their phone number and text them right there Be like hey, I'm gonna text you right now just to make sure that you have my phone number and then whatever it is that you want After that, right you

Olivia: Right.

Jia: do it Monday you do it Tuesday, but here's the problem Olivia Ninety nine point nine percent of people don't because they were high they were high as balls They're high as fuck You know at the club Getting there, and then on Monday,

Olivia: Thanks for watching!

Jia: Tuesday, when serotonin is running low, motivation is running low, they don't do anything in action.

Olivia: It's so true. It's so true. Also, I love how you said nine, nine. I'm pretty sure you said it nine times.

Jia: I did.

Olivia: Is that just like a subtle?

Jia: No, it's because, yeah, I mean, it's also a marketing thing. We do have nine times nine playing for us end of September. So that is

Olivia: Oh my God, amazing.

Jia: to them. Yeah, and they literally have nine nines in their brand. So

Olivia: Yep.

Jia: that's the joke.

Olivia: I caught it. You're so right though, because people are like so excited when they get that initial point of contact and then their serotonin gets low, like you said, and then they get demotivated or something. And this is like, I'll say for me that has happened in the past because I'm not perfect. I'm continually working through like my limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome. I'll meet somebody at a club and it'll be a great interaction. And then I'll like, think about it later, be like, was it that great? Was I being annoying? Was that appropriate? And I actually like can stop myself from taking the next step. So I think people also get shy that way because the club is such a happy environment. And sometimes I think people will second guess themselves.

Jia: Yeah, for sure, but as long as you get the contact and no matter how you act, you can always start off with a message. Hey, it was so nice meeting you. Sorry if I was a little bit bubbly. Sorry if I was a little over-vibing, just the music. You can always just say that and then boom, get professional right off

Olivia: Right.

Jia: the bat. Don't overthink it. I think so many people are stuck in their own heads.

Olivia: Yep.

Jia: What do they think about me? How did I act? All of that, it doesn't matter. You can... with communication, with proper communication and explanation.

Olivia: Absolutely.

Jia: Everything can be start off clean slate.

Olivia: You're right. And I like the Instagram approach too, because it's kind of social proof. Like they can kind of scope you out and look at your pictures and are you posting weird stuff? Do your captions have correct grammar? I mean, really like that all contributes to you as like in a professional sense, the, what you put out into the world. So I think that's a really smart approach, DMing them on the spot. I'm actually going to take that tip. So thank you.

Jia: Yeah, no problem. I just did it in Mexico City. A bunch of people that I met, I mean, I did the same thing. And everyone wouldn't mind one new follower, Ray. So

Olivia: Right.

Jia: it's always something that it's very easy to break the ice.

Olivia: That's so smart. So talk to me about, I know you have events, you had you, the Guam festival, which is something you've been doing for a long time.

Jia: Yeah,

Olivia: Is that going to happen this year?

Jia: it is going to happen and I can confidently say so now. About a month ago, we were unsure, but now we have officially set the date for September 1st and 2nd for the 10 year anniversary in Guam. And we have also done the festival in an expanded island called Saipan, which is a Commonwealth of the US. And we just confirmed the date for August 19th as well, which is coming up very, very soon, but we're gonna work as fast as we can to make sure we can put on a good show.

Olivia: That's amazing. One facet of this show, I mean, a lot of what I talk about is the mindset of a creative entrepreneur, you know, manifesting success, but the other component is elevated experiences. And I have to say that the festivals that you're putting on, like, are the true definition of elevated experience. They're so unique and different. And I know a lot of it goes back to your roots from childhood, right?

Jia: Correct. You know, for me, in terms of making the experience really wholesome, I always believe that the vibe, right, this invisible KPI, I call it, it always starts from the creators or the promoters, like whoever's leading it. Now, if the leader of this event of this brand is this weird sketchy person or just someone that's just not well-intended or just someone that's not a good vibe. the party itself becomes that no matter who you book or what you bring or how many people are there, we've all been there. It's a packed place. It's one of my favorite DJs, but what? Something's just slightly off. This invisible KPI starts from that. And knowing that awareness, you know, as a party goer, I always wanna make sure that, you know, anything that we did, anything that I was leading, anything that I was leading with my team, that the intention, the energy has to be real. And... Back to my childhood, right? I'll explain to you why, like my true reason of why I got into throwing parties, because it felt like Christmas. That was like such a good childhood memory for me. Christmas season every year, I mean, my parents, my aunts, my family friends, they really outdid themselves that it's becoming hard to replicate. And the only thing that has any similarity in terms of feeling and the lights and the glamour and all that was... from doing these events. So I wanted to make sure that anybody that came in felt like it was a welcoming place. And it's good vibes because we're always celebrating something. And what are we celebrating? We're celebrating life. We're celebrating the present moment, which is always constantly fleeting us. So with that intention, I feel like that's what created our vibe. A lot of people don't understand where is this vibe coming from, but it's like we are... coming in with such good intentions that it only trickles down into the whole party and into the people that even work for us. I have to make sure their vibes are good. Everyone needs to bring that energy so that it creates that welcoming platform for people to just have a good time.

Olivia: It's, it's amazing. Um, I love the concept of an invisible KPI. And I love that you have continuously done those pulse checks with the staff that you, that you hire and bring on even as you grow, because sometimes when something gets really big, uh, you know, that can get lost a little bit. Uh, you don't have, you're not able to kind of vibe check everyone that you bring on, but I know that that's really important to you and that's what sets you apart. So. big kudos to making sure that, you know, you do that because, you know, I, the same can't be said for lots of other organizations simply because they're just too big to, you know, to be able to do that.

Jia: Well, you know, like I'm just gonna say, right, too big means that their only KPI is the financial KPI. And, and we went there in terms of like, at one point, you know, in our journey, me and me and Marco only looked at the numbers. And we use that to determine if things were successful or not. And that led us to become actually depressed. Because we're like, we made money, but like, I don't know, something felt really weird, bro. Right, and it's like, yeah, like the vibe, the energy was wrong, and then we started to realize that, okay, not every money you're gonna, or not every event you're gonna make money, that's completely true in terms of the event promoter world. Even if you're a big company, you're gonna have nights where you lose. On nights where you lose financially, you have to look at other KPIs. How was the vibe of the party? How was the artist's experience? Right? Once you start looking at that, because they have long-term intangible growth, not just something so black and white short-term. So that is just something super important. I've actually mentioned this on another podcast that I did in Mexico City with another promoter, actually the one that booked me. And I told him the same thing. Like you can't just look at one singular KPI because that's where everything else goes to shit. The artist experience goes to shit, right? Buyouts. Uber pickups, right? The vibe, who cares? Who cares if we just made money, it's sold out. Who cares there's not a lot of porta potties? Who cares, you know, things are running out or security's being assholes, who cares? Because we made money and you can't do that because then that's when you're gonna get the feedback from the community and the community don't give a damn about

Olivia: right?

Jia: your financial KPIs. They care about their own experience. They

Olivia: Right.

Jia: just gave you money to... have an experience and if you're not able to deliver that fully, including the artists that just flew halfway across the world jet-lagged, you're gonna do a dinner buyout, right? Assuming that is what you just offer right from the get-go and not asking them if they want a proper dinner together.

Olivia: Right. And the reason why, I mean, I know you're telling the truth about how you run your business, but what's social proof to everyone else is you are so closely intertwined with your brand. Like you are the face of the brand and Marco too. People know who you are. You're putting yourself out there. Like you are accessible in terms of people could figure out if they had, you know, a bad time at an event, who to contact. So you are, you are directly responsive and responsible for that. And so

Jia: You know?

Olivia: it's very rare.

Jia: Yeah, you know, and it wasn't always like this. I mean, I wasn't always so like, hey, this is fully me, the authentic me. I mean, it took me a while. I'm 39 right now, I'm turning 40 end of the year. It wasn't until just a couple of years ago, four or five years ago that I finally broke out of my shell, what, 34, 35, right? And now I just feel so good about it. Like there's nothing to hide because authenticity wins. You know, in the words of Gary V, I watched so many of his content. I listened to so many podcasts for so long that I finally was like, you know what? I'm gonna do this. And there's only one way to go about it is to be authentic. There are people that get uncomfortable in these situations and it's not because they're shy, they're whatever, no. Like I'm sure if you have dinner with them off camera, all of that, they're fine. But it's just something about they're not unable or unwilling to tap into something that's just really them and just blah, throw it out here like this.

Olivia: Right. Yeah, it's a brave thing to do, to put yourself in the spotlight and to be asked questions and to be, you know, just to not have high walls, basically. And

Jia: Mm-hmm.

Olivia: you can tell the difference with artists. And for me, especially when I'm looking for guests for the show, I'm looking for the people where they're injecting a little bit of personality and a little bit of authenticity and realness and rawness into what's happening. they present to the world. Because if it's just all about my show here, I'm not saying, not everybody has to like put all of their business out there. But when it's very like cut, copy and paste, here's this show, here's this upcoming project, whatever, I feel like you don't, you can't connect the same way as you can connect with an artist or someone in the scene who's just like honest and upfront about who they are.

Jia: 100% and I'm someone that always understands that it's your actions that will actually be the example, right? Because anybody can say, I'm authentic, I'm real, I'm all this, but no, like how are you showing up? How are you showing it? And how are you doing it consistently? And because of things like Artist Map, the content we've been writing, like the position that we're kind of in right now. We... There is no other way in terms of how to approach this without being openly and authentically because this is what we preach. So you better do what you preach, right? Or else, again, living in cognitive dissonance, right? You're teaching and telling one thing, but you're acting on another. That also does something to your brains.

Olivia: You're right. Well, this has been such a valuable conversation. I appreciate your time as always. And I know a lot of people, not just artists, but anybody can find this so useful. So thank you so much.

Jia: Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Olivia. It was a pleasure.